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Pain, power, and other lessons
from the global church
A conversation with Sam Kamaleson

Thirty years ago, Dr. Sam Kamaleson, along with his wife Adala, moved from his Methodist pastorate in India to work with World Vision in the United States. Until his retirement in 1996, he spent most of his time serving as vice president at large. One of his responsibilities (which extended beyond his retirement) has been to organize and speak at pastors' conferences all around the globe. During the fall of 2004, he was a visiting professor at Asbury Theological Seminary in Wilmore, Kentucky. He was recently interviewed by Dr. James V. Heidinger II, the president and publisher of Good News.

Good News: Sam, you were a recent graduate of veterinarian medicine when you converted to Christianity. How did you end up in the ministry?

Kamaleson:  The young man who led me to Christ was my classmate in the university. He had been a Hindu, became a believer, lived the life, and then talked about meeting Jesus, which was my reason for interest. I didn't know that you could meet Him. Then I did meet Him.

Good News: Methodist missionaries in India such as David and J.T. Seamands played a large role in bringing you to the United States to eventually work with World Vision. How did that come about?

Kamaleson: A musical group composed of David Seamands, his brother J.T., and two other Methodist missionaries came to our church. Their winsome music was enchanting to me. J.T. took an interest in me. We both had a similar kind of singing ability, and he began to mentor me.

Through his mediation, I came to Asbury Theological Seminary where Adala and I both did our studies. When we returned to India, I was asked to pastor my home church in Madras. During that year, there was a huge revival.

To this day, the counsel that David gave me is clear in my mind. It was he who led me to what is known as the cleansing experience of intentions and heart by the blessed Holy Spirit. Vivid memories of those things are still guiding principles in my life.

Good News: You have been involved with World Vision since 1974, in a ministry to pastors. What did you discover to be their greatest need?

Kamaleson: The capacity to hold realities without moving into mere appearances is one of the greatest needs of a Christian. This is the language that John Mackay used years ago in a beautiful book, Christian Reality and Appearance. This is the greatest need for a professional. A professional starts with the reality, and then soon the reality becomes such a familiar thing, he or she moves into mere stages of appearance without the vitality of that reality. This is probably the greatest need of men and women who are called to be shepherds of the flock.

Good News: There is always the danger of losing the sense of how precious the treasure is that we have in Christ, isn't there?

Kamaleson: Yes. Mackay breaks it down into four categories. First, he says, self-disclosure, God's self-disclosure, is the reality. God so loved, he gave the Word who became flesh. That can become merely an idolatry of ideas.

It may not be such a distraction if it were not for the people watching our lives and not finding the reality of the event of God's self-disclosure happening over and over again. Like Dr. E. Stanley Jones used to say, "The message you bear judges you constantly." Now, that is the way to keep this reality from becoming just an appearance.

Mackay also cautions us about "transforming encounter becoming merely impressionism, an idolatry of feeling." We who speak so much about the transforming encounter need to be careful that we are not degenerating merely to a feeling. The encounter transforms, transforms, and transforms. There must not be a let up on transformation because there is a process between the cleansing of the heart and the transformation of a character. The heart that is cleansed, and is in a relationship of love with its Redeemer, then follows through with the obedience that measures the depth of that love relationship. It is an ongoing transformation.

The next thing that Mackay speaks about is the community of Christ becoming an idolatry of the structure. He calls it "churchism." Structure is unavoidable. The structure is meant to facilitate the functioning of the community that it serves. But when the structure tells the community, "You are here only to maintain me," then that structure needs to be addressed. They who value the calling and the purpose and mission of the community must address such a structure to transform it to facilitate the functioning of the community again. This is a dynamic reality. Renewal of the community will liberate the community to so address the structure to facilitate the results of renewal.

The last thing that Mackay speaks about is Christian obedience, which can lapse into ethicism, an idolatry of precepts. If only some of the energy of our struggles might be diverted into the creativity of working with AIDS, struggling with people who have never known justice, and the transformation of the concept of power itself.

If power is solely manipulation, and not the power of the cross, I am far away from where I should be. The custodians of this reality are the people of God. If they don't do what they know is right to do, then justice will become an academic reality. Somebody else will take the lead because God will never remain quiet. God acts in history. And we, having side-tracked ourselves into ethicism, an idolatry of precepts, would lose the lead and opportunity of the day.

Good News: It seems that the church in America tends to be focused on power and size, not on suffering and service. We are, frankly, reluctant today to embrace the concept of suffering.

Kamaleson: As I have observed, the church in the Global South has embraced suffering as an inevitable part of discipleship. The One who leads us is the One who spoke about the inevitableness of the cross. Three times in Mark he says it distinctly, and all three times they who loved him with their hearts couldn't follow with their minds because their values were different. The reality is that their concept of power was very different from His concept of power.

Social values in the history of the church have never changed until the concept of power changed in the mind of the church. In the Global South, the church is following a person who said, "I go to die. You follow me and come to die." Martyrdom is a daily event from which they are not trying to escape. In the South, people who follow the Nazarene realize that it is inevitable, that it will follow.

Our mission statement from Jesus in Mark 10 is: "I have come not to receive service, but to be a servant, and to lay my life down." I have thought that there is a connection in the three aspects of that statement. He came, not to receive service; but to, in compassion, touch the marginalized. Why did He touch them? Mark says, "moved with compassion, he touched him." Compassion makes contact.

Good News: You seem to be saying compassion must, by necessity, be hands-on and tangible.

Kamelson: Yes, compassion is the reason that we cannot just do good things from a distance. We have to be in contact with the suffering.

Compassion is visceral, not cerebral. When a visceral activity is substituted by mere cerebral activity, we can do compassion in a classroom. That would be a substitute and it takes the heart out of the matter.

The dominant culture feels guilty by the action of the compassionate. A way to avoid action is to say, "You are a radical form of criticism. I'm going to eliminate you." So a cross begins to loom.

It is true that the cross of Jesus of Nazareth was the redemptive cross. There's no other cross that can equate to it. But he also said, "You've got to pick up your cross and follow." It's not that I redeem myself. But being redeemed by him, I have no other path to follow. This becomes the heart of the whole crux of the Southern church's activity in exile, in poverty, in marginalization, in martyrdom.

So the more we respond to the compassion that God gives us, the more inevitable the experience of the cross becomes. Then we will begin to learn that our change of values is linked to our concept of what power is.

Manipulation, structured hierarchy, a pyramided authority-these are all natural inclinations within us. And in Mark, Jesus constantly leads his disciples out of that.

Good News: How do you see the churches in the Global South having an impact today on the mainline churches in America?

Kamaleson: Mainly, in the concept of what is power. We think we have a hold on power. We may say that is because they are unfortunate. Once they become like us, they will be different. My prayer is that they will never become like us. Not all the world is where we are. We can't expect all the world to live in a way we are living because energy resources will not permit it.

The way to live is to have a virtue that is self-giving, that would say, "I have not come to receive, I have come to give." And as long as there is sin on planet earth, this will lead to an inevitable cross. I can't be present to the other unless I am willing to be absent to myself. In proportion to the extent to which I am willing to be absent to myself, I'll be present to the other. This we do every day to our loved ones. And this, God expects us to do universally.

The end of common sense and structured religion is the beginning of salvation. Some structure is necessary. We can't do away with it. But the community does not exist to maintain the structure. The structure, rather, should facilitate the community to express her identity. Her identity is a call to community.

So, the community needs to speak to the structure, and say "You are here to facilitate the dynamism of the expression of my identity." And with the power of the Holy Spirit, the community lives in this dialogical relationship with the structure.

Good News: It seems as if you are saying that church structures must remember they exist in order to enable and assist local churches to be the means of grace, to be effective in ministry, and to be of service to them, rather than dictating to them what they ought to do.

Kamaleson: Right. Another way it might be said would be that some may begin to think the structures separate them from, rather than help them be servants to, the community of believers.

Good News: Institutional structures can attempt to direct the community to different understandings or interpretations of the Gospel that are not embraced by many in our local churches.

Kamaleson: Yes. Right. I think there's a big gap between the enlightened leaders and the following. In many cases, they are not following at all. The leader has the misfortune of thinking he or she is a leader, when really there is no following. For an appointed leader to be effective, there must be a willingness of the people to say, "We yield authority to you." Authority can never be demanded. Such an authority is a myth. Authority is always yielded. "They whom the Father has given me, they are the ones to whom I am accountable."

The church in the Global South is clearly telling us what direction to go. The relationship is changing dynamically. Because the North no longer seems to feel, "I have it all and you've got to listen to me," perhaps it can admit to the South, "I need to learn from you."

In a biblical orientation, the people in the North are saying, "I like your lead, and I want to be part of you." There are congregations in our North American situation who'd much rather take the lead from the archbishop of Nigeria or the archbishop of Bolivia. They're doing this with absolute freedom, no longer in bondage. "No, I can't do this. I am superior to you"-all that is gone. This is being seen most recently in the World Anglican Communion.

Good News: What does the church in America need to know and do about the HIV/AIDS epidemic in Africa and elsewhere?

Kamaleson: Like all of our misunderstandings, our belief statements are one thing, and our perceived values are another.

When we first encountered leprosy, we only wanted to pull away until we were told, "It's not such a dreadful thing. You can minister." Now we have enough evidence that we can minister to people who are in the enormous suffering of HIV/AIDS. Unless we shoulder their suffering, not only will we lose our compassion, but all the words we use to justify our loss of compassion will come back to us like Jacob's wrestling match at Peniel. We need to come to the point where, like Jacob, we say, "I was wrong. And unless you bless me, I can't get out of this encounter." And then God makes the hip joint slip. And the man walks with a limp for the rest of his life. But when people thought this was a disqualification, he smiled and said, "That is the point at which I have the affirmation that God made me a new man."

So that which we have done as a mistake needs to become our great affirmation. God has taught me that not only in Africa, but in my own country of India, HIV/AIDS is a runaway epidemic. Ignoring it is the last thing that we should do. The church needs to model not only compassion, but also a lifestyle in which care is both given and received. Those who are afflicted must be willing to accept the new methods and morality of the care that is given. And they who give the care should not think they are perfect examples of righteousness. We are broken persons ministering to broken persons.

Good News: Do you see signs of encouragement in the church in America, particularly the mainline churches?

Kamaleson: Yes, because my association with the mainline churches in North America (particularly my own-I am a Methodist) has always been with people who have known the difference between reality and appearance, and have been very careful to own their dependence on the Lord.

The main thing that I see as hope for the present time is what God is doing among the young people, the youth of this nation. It is a broad spectrum that spreads into every denomination.

The second thing that I see is what God is doing out of compulsion to wake up people about the reality of evil. At one time, we forced ourselves into thinking evil was purely a relative thing. There is nothing defined "evil." Now, what we have experienced in recent times puts evil in a perspective that may lead us to a real repentance and turning to the renewing power of the blessed Holy Spirit.

There are things within us to which we got so acclimatized. We don't call it evil anymore. In fact, one definition of worldliness is calling what is right, evil, and what's evil, right or good. This may be one of the things that will bring about a renewal of commitment, when we say, "I need to live with accountability the time that God has given me to live."

Good News: What advice do you have for evangelical renewal ministries within the mainline denominations?

Kamaleson: While we follow this Jesus of Nazareth, we should not be trying to find out if we are the best among the rest. "Who is the greatest?" was the discussion going on among the disciples as they were trying to follow Jesus Christ. We lose our right to be heard when merely comparative virtue is our goal. I think our goal is a person. Virtue is a result of obedience. And we should leave the results to take care of themselves and keep our attachment to him.

Over the years Good News has been in operation, she has brought a lot of good to the whole denomination, simply because she knew that she is part of the whole, and not an entity by herself. We need to also celebrate whatever is common wherever it is found within this large body of believers. We should avoid asking for recognition and position. It will be given; it is my firm conviction. From where we used to be, totally marginalized, to where we are now, we have come a long way. And we need to praise God for this! And we should not think of this as a congratulatory procedure. We need to still follow the person. We leave the consequences to be the defining thing that God will do. This will give us sustainability, from my way of thinking.

If the cross is the power, then I can lay my life down and I'll pick it up again. Without that, no value will change. If the cross is power, then the means is as important as the end. When personal rights are being trampled, they will consider those rights unimportant to the task of the kingdom. They'll keep moving on.

From the cross, Jesus said, "Father, forgive them." There is a responsible hope and there is an irresponsible hope. Joseph Stalin eliminated 21 million people in order to fulfill his hope of the future. Jesus of Nazareth embraced his persecutors and said, "Father, forgive them." One is the work of the Son of God. The other is mere ideology trying to perpetuate itself.

Good News: We have always been concerned about accountability and integrity in leadership. We feel we must call for that, but without doing so in a spirit of pride or arrogance. What counsel do you have for us?

Kamaleson: Over the years, I think Good News has done it very well. There were times when we learned, we stubbed our toes, and then we sat down, regrouped and went on. This is a process. Our human systems will never be 100 percent perfect.

When the gospel first came to Uganda, the kings were in absolute authority over the people. They could do anything, including sexually immoral things. And they had the power to do that. Then, the gospel made its impact. And they were shocked to find that the Son of God washed the feet of the disciples. How would this be implemented in Uganda? The men who had been so ruthless about the position of authority went to dig in the garden along with their ordinary subjects. They worked beside them. It's part of the history of the church in Uganda that needs to be told everywhere.

Accountability is when we say, "No, I am you. You are me. I'll wash your feet." It's not a show of how humble I can be. It is a show of accountability. Jesus loved them to the end. He knew where he was going, and he knew where he came from. Somehow that story of Uganda is in my mind. It's captivating.

As I see it, because the Word has become flesh, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that He, whose intention in Creation was not destruction, but redemption, will bring us to that glorious day. He will not let us die. He will not let the church die. He will work redemptively.

Good News: Paul wrote to Timothy, "Guard the good deposit given to you." There is a faithfulness to the truth of the gospel narrative that the Church must retain. It's the truth that we have been commissioned to preach, the great confession for which the martyrs died. It seems some churches in America have lost their confidence in the trustworthiness of the message of the gospel.

Kamaleson: In Ephesians, in the opening verse, Paul says, "We are partners in the defense and confirmation of the Gospel." It is not merely an apologetics, but it is in the living of it. The biggest apologetic evidence is your body of believers living-there's no argument against that.

While we defend the truth, we need to conform ourselves to that same truth, especially in the way we relate with others and with one another. We've been doing that. I want to congratulate Good News on this. We need to continue to do that. We need to be very plain in saying, "This is the distinctive." We need to also tell ourselves that this distinctive is mine to celebrate. It's what sets me free. And there's a winsomeness in that, which cannot be withstood.

Remember what E. Stanley Jones said, "The message we bear judges me, before it can have any judgment or impact on my hearers." And so it constantly softens. The hearers will know that this is happening to the bearer. And then the integrity of the bearer is an acceptable integrity.

Good News



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