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A conversation among friends
By George Mitrovich

Nineteen years ago, Dr. William Willimon graced the cover of Good News with his Duke University colleague Dr. Robert Wilson. They talked about leadership and their book Rekindling the Flame: Strategies for a Vital United Methodism (Abingdon).

"The persons in key positions in the United Methodist Church today are primarily managers and not leaders," Wilson and Willimon wrote. "Leaders are persons with a vision that they are able to articulate. They can name the needs, desires, and hopes of the people. They have a charisma that inspires confidence."

The professors went on to write, "In contrast, managers accept the validity of the institutional status quo and give their attention to its maintenance. They see that everything is done correctly by the proper person and consistent with precedent. In due course, the institution becomes an end in itself, rather than a means to serve a larger goal."

When Willimon became a United Methodist bishop in 2004, we never worried that he would become a manager. He is too much of an independent thinker. "It's a sign we're not dead yet," said Dr. Stanley Hauerwas, a close friend and colleague at Duke, of Willimon's election. We agreed.

Over these last nineteen years, Good News and Bishop Willimon have both voiced concerns about the spiritual future of the United Methodist Church. Sometimes we have agreed, and other times we have not. He has had articles published in Good News and we have shared private concerns back and forth in letters. We have always maintained an open relationship even while disagreeing about important issues.

When we were celebrating the 25th anniversary of the magazine, we received a very kind compliment from Dr. Willimon: "You have asked tough questions, intruded into our settled bureaucratic power arrangements and in general made a nuisance of yourself in the most wonderful of ways." We often find ourselves saying the same thing about him.

Our friend George Mitrovich, president of the City Club in San Diego and United Methodist layman, caught up with our other friend Bishop Willimon and talked about some of the issues facing the future of the church. This is what they had to say. -The editors


George Mitrovich: Given your history of criticism of the United Methodist Church were you surprised by your election to the Episcopacy?

Bishop William Willimon: I sure was. The United Methodists are a forgiving, gracious lot, or they have bad memory loss. I was reminded that there are many folks out there who thought it was high time for some criticism of our beloved connection. My criticisms have been my attempt to love our church into a more certain future. It felt very affirming to be elected so soon and so resoundingly. I'm trying to be faithful to all those who had faith that I might make a difference.


Have the reforms you pushed been adopted?

Well, on the general church level, we have simplified some of our oppressive and expensive structure. Not as much as I advocated, but some. At the conference level, I am seeing a new passion for the formation of new churches and for reaching those whom we have neglected. I'm also seeing a great willingness to talk about clergy evaluation and accountability, which I consider so important to regain the trust of the laity. I am determined that our appointive system will be more transparent and more closely tied to the productivity and leadership of the clergy. I'm seeing real affirmation of that in my conference (North Alabama).


How different was your role as the Duke University Chapel preacher and that of a traditional church pastor?

I thought of myself as a pastor to the Christians on campus, particularly the student Christians. However, I was an institutional chaplain at an institution that no longer has much vital Christian connection. Actually, I came to think of myself as somewhat of a missionary, which, by the way, is just how I think local pastors ought to look at themselves! We are not caregivers and caretakers of the flock, but rather are missionaries in a culture that is no longer Christian. Which is a long way around of saying that I think I experienced parish ministry as it is going to be in the future.


How did you find time for writing so many books?

I talk a lot and I enjoy writing as a means of thinking. My stuff gets published, so therein lies the tale. At my first church, I had to preach three sermons every week, and that got me in the habit of producing a large amount of proclamation. I can't believe God has given me such a grand opportunity to extend my ministry through writing.


Is there a conflict between being a bishop and a writer?

I expect some would say there could be. But bishops are primarily teachers, defenders, and interpreters of the faith. And, believe it or not, that's what I think I'm doing in my writing. My last book was on sin-the "seven deadly sins"-and I admitted upfront that I had learned a great deal about sin, my own and others' sins, in the recent episcopal election process. So being a sinful bishop helped me to write about sin!


Can you be a writer, preacher, and bishop all at once?

We'll see. I've got my most ambitious, scholarly project ending right now, a book on Karl Barth and preaching. It was written amid all the tugs and pulls of being a bishop. I think the book is all the better, and all the more scholarly (in the deepest sense of the word) by having to write it while I was (in Paul's words) "in daily care for all the churches."


What is your view of John Wesley?

He was a great pastoral theologian, which is the only kind of theologian who is worth anything. I've been reading a lot of Father John lately. What a vibrant, constant, sense of the lively, intrusive, loquacious Trinity he had! He is of course eccentric and odd in so many interesting ways, and I'm not saying I'd want to work with him on a regular basis, but he really had a vibrant sense of an active God. None of that Deistic blah for him-that Deistic infection that so depilates us today! John W. rocks!


What is your view of Jacob Arminius?

Don't know much about him, except that I do know that Wesley has sure come across in my reading as much indebted to Luther or Calvin as to Arminius. I'm not much of a believer in the "free choice" business that many now ascribe to Arminius. It's all God and God's work in us in my book. How did you, as a layperson, ever hear about Jacob Arminius? I'm nervous around laypeople that know as much as you do, George.


What's happened to the Wesleyan message in the United Methodist Church?

It's been muted and sentimentalized, to a great degree. For instance, there is no word that is more abused and misunderstood among us than that great Wesleyan word "grace." Get this straight: In Wesley, "grace" is the power of God at work in us to live a different life than the one we've got. Wesley had a robust sense of our sinfulness, but an even more robust sense of what God in Christ could do about it. I also think he had a much more active doctrine of the Holy Spirit than the one we practice today with our entire button-down rules, etc. I don't think he would have approved of the Judicial Council.


What happened to the doctrine of sanctification?

You tell me. I think the evangelicals who notoriously stress justification at the expense of sanctification hijacked it. God's grace is something that says, "You're saved. Take your membership card and move up the line." Sanctification says, "God is going to rip you off, jerk you around, and make you a great deal more like what God intended you to be before God leaves you."


How do you grow a church?

You pray for God to do for us what we cannot do ourselves. You confess that we have sinned against the Holy Spirit in our failure to start new communities of faith. Then you get a good pastor who is more of a preacher and a leader than a caregiver. Then you just hold on and watch what the Holy Spirit is up to. There is something about a Trinitarian God that keeps reaching, pushing, and growing. A declining church is not a faithful church in the fullness of the reaching, Trinitarian God.

One of our most rapidly growing churches is one that ministers mainly to the homeless and the unemployed. A Republican congress is giving them lots of new members! Jesus can grow a church if you'll just try to grow it among the folk that he particularly loves.


Can the United Methodist Church be saved?

Like my buddy Stanley Hauerwas says, "Where the Holy Spirit is active, and with Jesus Christ risen from the dead, there is always hope for us." If we just dare to let God use us, all things are possible.


As a bishop who upholds the orthodox Christian faith, how do you relate to those bishops who do not?

Not sure who you are referring to there. The orthodox faith is just so much more interesting than many things some in our church are interested in. For one thing, there is absolutely no biblical warrant for all of our unproductive debates about sex. I think we should talk about sex as much as Jesus talked about it. The only thing I know from Jesus for sure (in regard to sexual matters) is that we're never, ever to remarry after a divorce. There, does that make you feel better?


Should gay people be accepted into membership?

Sure, as long as they desire to be cleansed of their sin and free from the wrath to come. Any gay person who wants to join our church, after all the statements we've made about the sin of homosexual practice, must be one of the most gracious people in the world. We could use more gracious people in our church.

When I joined the church I was extremely greedy and lustful. God has worked on me. I'm still greedy and lustful, but you wouldn't believe how much better I am since I met Jesus. I'm a heterosexual, though not that active at the moment, but I assume that if Jesus can forgive and transform me, it's not too much of a reach to think he can do that for an openly gay person.

Jesus never said it was hard to save gay people. He said it was hard to save rich people like Don Trump and Bill Gates and me. Still, with God, all things are possible!


What should we do about the ordination of homosexuals?

Who told you that was a big issue? We've lost three million members in a couple of decades. None of that has anything to do with gay people! It has to do with the failures of heterosexual Christians!

We don't have much problem in Alabama with lots of gays wanting to be ordained. We have a big problem with modestly talented, not too energetic or passionate heterosexual people wanting to be ordained. I wish Good News would do more good work in trying to get the very best, the most faithful pastoral leaders in our church and worry less about gays, ordained or not. But they haven't asked me.

Our church appears ambivalent about abortion, about the evils of corporate America, about the invasion of Iraq, but we sure know a lot about gay people, so much more than the Bible. I can tell you exactly what our church believes about sex, but I can't tell you exactly what Jesus believes about sex.

I think it's strange. Still, I support whatever General Conference says on any subject and will do my best to carry out the will of our church on this or any other matter. I work for General Conference.


What should we do about gay marriages?

You're just full of scripturally irrelevant questions, aren't you George? We don't do gay marriages in our church. Period. I'm more worried about all the marriages that we do and that fail, than I am about the gay marriages we don't do.


Are civil unions with the same protection provided married couples a better alternative?

Just don't know much about it. I think the state should marry whomever the state wants to marry. With us as a church, we actually believe that God is involved in any true marriage, so I'm not sure that civil unions have much to do with us. Ask me something biblical, George!


Should a minority of United Methodists drive the church's agenda?

No. That's why we have General Conference. And that's why I've had it with the Institute on Religion and Democracy and the Reconciling Ministries, etc. They represent such a small segment of our church, and they, from what I can tell, embody some of the same weaknesses. Part of being a Wesleyan is to see the big picture, to worry about the church, not to be jerked around by my little list of personal issues.


What can the United Methodist Church do to attract young people?

Talk to them! Hang out with them! The thing I miss most about my old life is getting to be with Jesus as he works a new generation. There is something about this God named Trinity that just loves to get into the lives of people between the ages of 16 and 21. Something about this God that makes him want to do strange and wonderful things to young people. We need to be there as a church when this God cuts loose with a new generation of Christians. There are days when I think our church exists, is organized, and is dedicated to the spiritual needs of people who are as old as you are, George. That's sad. Jesus is doing great among this generation of youth, but we're not. What does that tell you?

George Mitrovich, president of The City Club of San Diego and The Denver Forum, two leading American public forums, has a long history of political, government, and civic involvement. He was press aide to Senator Robert F. Kennedy in the Presidential campaign of 1968, and subsequently served as press secretary to two members of the United States Senate-Senator Charles E. Goodell, Republican of New York, and Senator Harold Hughes, Democrat of Iowa. Mr. Mitrovich lives in San Diego, California, and is a member of that city's First United Methodist Church.  



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